High-Stakes Decision Making: From Plain to Plane with Patty Bear

In aviation, there is a principle that does not negotiate.

The ground does not care.

It does not care if you are tired.

It does not care if your life is unstable.

It does not care how confident you feel.

It is always there.

Waiting for your thinking to fail.

This episode marks a shift.

Not just in conversation, but in standard.

For the first time on The Magnificent Ones Podcast, we introduce a voice that does not operate from theory, but from consequence.

Patty Bear is a former Gulf War pilot and Boeing 777 captain. She has operated in environments where clarity is not optional, where decisions are made with incomplete information, and where the margin for error is measured in seconds.

But her story does not begin in the cockpit.

Raised in a restrictive Mennonite community and forced to navigate identity under constraint, Patty developed something far more valuable than confidence.

She developed discipline of thought.

This conversation is not about inspiration.

It is about operating correctly when it matters.

We examine the difference between clarity and confidence, and why most people unknowingly substitute one for the other. We break down how errors are rarely singular events, but chains built slowly through unnoticed lapses in awareness. And we confront a reality most avoid:

You are not judged by your intentions.

You are measured by your decisions under pressure.

Patty brings a framework forged through aviation, refined through experience, and expanded through her work as an author. Her thinking translates high-stakes decision-making into something usable, but never diluted.

Because reality does not adjust for you.

And if your thinking is not clear, the consequences compound.

This episode is the beginning of a new standard.

Sharper.

More precise.

More honest about what it actually takes to operate at a high level.

In this episode:

• The difference between clarity and confidence in decision-making
• How small thinking errors compound into major consequences
• What aviation reveals about operating under pressure
• Why discipline of thought matters more than motivation
• A framework for high-stakes decision making in real-world environments

Connect with Patty Bear

Website: https://www.theflyingclub.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/authorPattyBear

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pattybearauthor

Books by Patty Bear

Captain Patty’s Wisdom Hacks: 20 Tools for Clarity, Direction, and Self-Leadership

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=captain+patty%27s+wisdom+hacks

From Plain to Plane: My Mennonite Childhood, a National Scandal and an Unconventional Soar to Freedom

https://www.amazon.com/Plain-Plane-Mennonite-Childhood-Unconventional/dp/0997573503

House of the Sun: A Visionary Guide for Parenting in a Complex World

https://www.amazon.com/House-Sun-Visionary-Parenting-Complex/dp/099757352X

Unmasking Patriarchy: Gender is the Cover Story—Not the Culprit (Pre-order, May 2026)

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Unmasking+patriarchy

This episode is brought to you by Dre’s Island Flava.

Authentic Caribbean flavor, done right.

https://dresislandflava.com

Support the show and be part of what this is becoming:

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1963905/support

Transcript

A Podcast Built For Clarity

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is not a podcast for comfort. It's a podcast for clarity. In a culture flooded with noise, dangerous narratives, and emotional uncertainty, this space exists to examine what actually matters and what actually works. Here we question power itself, belief systems, and the assumptions most people inherit without inspection. Most people accept instead of dissect. This podcast is about correcting that. Welcome. Bienvenue, Felcomen, Marhaban, Bienvenidos to the Magnificent Ones podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Thirty years ago, if you walked into a commercial airline cockpit, the odds of seeing a woman in command were almost non existent. Even today, women make up only about five percent of airline pilots worldwide. Now narrow that further. Military aviation, combat era environments, high-stakes command decisions, long-haul operational thinking. The percentage becomes microscopic. Then narrow it again. A woman raised inside a closed, old order Mennonite community, where silence was expected, obedience was taught, and leadership was not part of the script. The probability becomes even smaller. Yet today's guest lived that entire arc from a closed system to the US Air Force to flying during the Gulf War to nearly three decades in commercial aviation, eventually commanding a Boeing 777, one of the most complex aircraft ever built. And when you're thousands of miles from land, when something fails, when there's no easy answer, clarity isn't philosophical, it's operational. This is the magnificent ones. And today's conversation is about clarity under pressure, how it's built, how it holds, and why clarity, not confidence, may be the most important meta skill for navigating modern life.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Patty, my first question for you is when did you realize that clarity, not confidence, was the real skill that kept you alive in the conflict?

A Rare Path To Command

SPEAKER_00 2:30

That's a great question. When is the first gosh, that's a hard question to answer? I because it's a hard question to answer because you do so much training around emergency situations, which are developing clarity. And so I guess I'm kind of a uh and also because the process of developing clarity is something that I have sort of been developing all of my life. I guess what I would say is this in terms of aviation, is that aviation is a uniquely, there are a few other professions, but aviation is a unique industry or is a unique being a pilot is a unique exercise in or laboratory, however you want to think about it, in the cost of not having clarity. It is, it is always present. I I one of the phrases that I use in one of my books is the ground doesn't care. And it doesn't care whether you had a bad day, it doesn't care whether you were up all night caring for a sick child, it doesn't care whether you just broke up with your boyfriend or girlfriend. The ground is always there. And so you had better get your mind in the game and you better stay clear. And if you're not clear, to recognize that you're not clear and catch up, something we call an aviation, a chain of errors. So I guess the answer is I can't think of any one specific story where I was like, oh my gosh, it's just always, it's ever present. And so I have taken that into other parts of my life as well. And that that recognition has been helpful in every other part of life.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Something that I've recognized with with talking to lots of individuals is that you'll have individuals that are highly skilled that they pay close attention to detail. And they've had no errors occur because they've so been so detail-oriented, right? And so they're not, they haven't dealt with the an instance where things went wrong because they've always been doing things right. And then the moment finally happens when something goes wrong that was not in their control and it wasn't because of a miscalculation on their part. And so that's it, it can, it's almost like a double-edged sword because you need certain things to allow you to adapt and to evolve. And experience, as they say, is the greatest teacher. Have you encountered a situation where things went right for so long and then finally it just did not? And it wasn't on your part, it just happened.

Why Clarity Beats Confidence

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, so this is how so in aviation, that doesn't happen very often. We we have a saying, there's no such thing as a perfect flight. And so it's a very dynamic environment. You're always affected by things outside of you. You're affected by weather, you're affected by winds, you're affected by other crew members you fly with, the airplane malfunctions. So for me, that's less likely the idea, oh, I can be so prepared that nothing will go wrong. The airplane can break. That's just a fact of life. But where I can think of one instance where it has come up in uh a personal relationship where you where you're doing everything right, like you're you're operating with integrity, you're being generous, being understanding, and the other person behaves badly, behaves out of integrity. You can't change that. And it catches you off guard. And then part of what you can do as it relates to clarity is you can deny it because you don't want to see it. It's something called betrayal blindness, right? And you can downplay it, you can minimize it, you can excuse it, you can, you can do all kinds of different things. You can confront it, but no matter how much you prepare, other people can behave badly towards you. Things can break, you know, things happen. And it's your ability to have clarity about what is this? Am I how how am I seeing this clearly? Like, is this what's happening? And then what am I, what are my choices? What are my choices? And sometimes people jump right from this is what's happening to a reaction. And you want to take a moment to stop and think about what are the range of my choices? And now what am I going to choose?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

How did aviation help you understand how to separate signal from noise? And what what are the differences between the two?

When Preparation Still Isn’t Enough

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Well, signal, so actually, signal from noise started when I was a very young child. And this may be a little off base, but I think it's relevant to what we're talking about. And then I'll get back to the aviation example. But from a very young age, I navigated my life by something that I call the call of the wild soul. And I had experiences as a young child of guidance that I didn't know what it meant. It just had a, it just had a ring of integrity. And it wasn't authoritarian, it wasn't go do this. It was just, and so I have always kind of lived my life with that. It's like that's a tuning fork, and I can hear, I can hear the level of integrity or the level of quality of advice or information or clarity. It doesn't mean that I never make mistakes, it doesn't mean I'm never fooled, but that attention to that has been there since I was a child. So in the airplane, the difference between signal and noise. So part of it in the in the airplane, part of it is being humble. So in terms of any experienced pilot will tell you, even the best pilot, even the absolute ace of the base, the person who does check rides, the person who instructs other people, you can overload them. You can have so many things going on at once. There can be so much noise that they can't hear the signal. And anyone can get overloaded. And then the thing is to recognize that that's a possibility. And to start, you have to start shedding things. You have to prioritize. You have to say this isn't that important right now in this moment. What's important right now in this moment is getting on the ground with this engine on fire or, you know, whatever it is that you're handling. And you you sort of have to, you have to build those compartmentalizations in your in your brain.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

So can you take us to uh one specific moment? You're in command, something goes wrong, you're far from diversion airports, the crew is looking at you, the passengers are unaware, time is compressing. Now, what happened and what did you see first? And what went through your mind? And what decision did you make?

Signal Versus Noise In Real Time

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So um with the uh the when I upgraded to the left seat in the airlines, I was an aircraft commander in the Air Force, but when you go into the airlines, you start over at the bottom, you're a first officer, co-pilot, and then you upgrade. So when I upgraded to the left seat to captain, it was on the 757, 767 fleet, and I'd finished the way it works is you go through all your training, you learn systems, and you go through all your emergency procedures and you practice in the simulator, and then you have to pass a check ride. And then when you go out on the line, you you're flying people, you go with a line check airman, so an instructor pilot who checks you out and either signs you off or don't. And then you have to also go out with an FAA representative on one of the on one of the flights. Well, I was with the line check airman and I had flown with her when she was a captain. And so we were we were sitting there, we were going, I can't remember, we were going somewhere in the East Coast to to Denver, and this light came on that in the 757 is a is kind of a warning light. So most warning lights are like, yeah, it's you look stuff up and you get it to go out. This warning light in the 757, you look at it and you're like, probably gonna be shutting down the engine, right? So, excuse me. So I saw it come on. I was like, so a quick moment for a joke, because it, you know, in the airplane, one of the things you want to do is take your time. So I just looked at her and I said, Oh, come on. I said, I did all this stuff in the in the simulator. We don't really have to do this again, right? So just a quick joke. Then we get out the the checklist and we pull it back, and sure enough, we do have to shut it down. And then as soon as you shut down an engine, you have to divert into into somewhere. And it's just it's a time where you're thinking about what your options are, and you're thinking about the people in the back. And so one of the things that I'm thinking about after we do all the checklist items and take care of the airplane is I'm thinking, okay, so you have to tell the people at the back you're diverting. You also have to think about how these people feel about having lost an engine. As a pilot, I know the airplane can fly on per perfectly good on one engine, but a lot of people in the back who aren't familiar with aviation are probably going to be like, you know, we're gonna die. And so I just worked that into my announcement. I said, we lost an engine, we're going to have to divert to we're gonna have to divert to Denver airport. No, it wasn't Denver, it was Kansas City. We're gonna have to divert. And I said, but the airplane can fly perfectly well on one engine, so you don't need to worry. And so you just think about all the different considerations there.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Because I think that moment for me personally, I think that probably most human beings where they're not trained in a situation, it becomes a survival situation emotionally. Not that that it it is, but emotionally our emotions can, you know, get take the better of us, right? Because you're like, oh, I've watched every movie in the world where this is what happens, you know, and it's it's not reality. And because you have that lived experience in being able to say that I'm sure you were calm when you said that, and that was probably a comfort to those people as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah, and it's it's a good point. I I think you know, one of the things is that you get trained in aviation, and I'm sure this is this way in medicine, if you're a surgeon or something, you get trained to take the emotion out of it simply by going over it, by being so well prepared, right? And and then I have always been for whatever reason, I can I can get in my head when there's not pressure, but when there's pressure, I forget all about it. I'm like, what what needs to be done? And my mind is busy, and then I'm not there's not fear, there's not, it's just this is a decision that has to be made, what are we gonna do? That sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

So how does that that apply to your everyday life? Like that type of thinking.

The Engine Shutdown And Divert

SPEAKER_00 14:02

So how does that apply to everyday life? The like taking the emotion out of it. So I think it's harder sometimes to do up close and personal in things that do involve emotion, right? So the airplane, uh aside from thinking about how the passengers are going to feel about it, doesn't emotion doesn't really come into it except what you bring into the equation, right? If you bring in you're having a bad day, and that's valid to notice at, but the airplane doesn't need your emotion. In human relationships, it does come into play in terms of we are affected by the people closest to us. And so the the training in aviation, what I have been working on lately or over the last couple of years is to use emotion as information. I think we can get confused between whether, you know, feelings are facts, right? They're not. They're they're information for us. They tell us something about our internal world, something about what we're registering. And so what I try to separate from for myself is, well, what's actually happening? Factually, what has happened. And then not make my feelings wrong, but try not to bring them into the conversation then, that they that they are reserved simply as information for myself for the most part. I don't know if that's right or wrong. I'm not giving anybody advice to do that. I'm just saying this is what I have come to find I like that works better for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

In an area that I've often made mistakes is I'll just be factual in situations. And I think because I'll compartmentalize and I'll say, I'll say, let's slow down and let's dissect this. And I think that's not an approach that most people are used to, that it would make me out to be almost like a villain. Not that that was my intention, so I've had to learn to bring more emotion, like not just listening, because there's almost this temptation to, okay, well, this is what you said. I listened, and now it's my turn to talk. And it's like, okay, let's just go stay here on this point, and then we'll move to the next point. And for a lot of people, because emotions, it's it's like this thing that goes in multiple directions, when you're being linear and chronological, a lot of people don't operate that way. And so they don't necessarily know how to respond to that.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

You know, that's a really good point. And to be completely emotionless or to not to not acknowledge other people's emotions is not an aim point, I think. It's for me, it's just about do what do I want to be running the show? What do I want to be in the foreground? And um who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But I yeah, I mean, I think it's a good point. Sometimes we can emotions helpful information, you know. You can be happy for people, you can be, you can, you can express yourself. And I think, but probably one of the most important things is to not invalidate other people's emotions. Doesn't necessarily have to mean that that feeling is a fact. It's just it's where they are, and to validate for that them and to not be so uncomfortable with the emotion that you can't that that you can't stay in the room with them, you can't be there with them.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

I think, and uh to a large extent, most of my life it was let's be factual, and not because I I I my intent, you know, they talk about intent versus outcome. My intent was to show that I am actually listening actively and that I'm slowing down and not reacting. That didn't always land well.

Emotion As Information In Life

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Isn't it so funny? We have to, even if something is functional in one way, there's so much we have to unlearn. There's so much conditioning. And it's not one size fits all for everybody. Like, it's like I have to learn to show emotion, or I have to learn to not show emotion. And, you know, it but but part of that is because you're looking at impact. How is this impacting other people? What are they, how are they receiving this? And so maybe I need to adjust my delivery and what I show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

I think in in many ways, people don't realize how uncertain so many things are. Even even us, right? Our brains can lie to us. And when we're we're called out, it it it's it's almost an identity shift may occur because if you're if you're willing and able to accept that, and you're like, okay, I didn't realize that I was negatively impacting other people and unintentionally invalidating their feelings by my approach. And so when I changed that, my identity also shifted as well because I learned that I'm processing information, but how I'm processing the information, I need to now also process and translate the emotion to then match who I'm speaking to. Yeah. And that was a skill that I learned in painful ways because my friends growing up, they would always tell me that in certain situations they felt like I was a robot. Dating-wise, two separate levels of relationships, right? Dating-wise, they're like, you're fun in all these situations, but when it comes to like to high emotional situations, it's like you're a robot. You're giving inputs and outputs. But that well, that was always how I functioned. And then I realized that, well, not everyone operates this way, so I have to be more, I guess, human, right? And be relatable in those emotional moments. Because just because I have control over my emotions, it's not necessarily about the control. It's the vulnerability of saying, I'm also affected by the things that you're telling me. People want to be not just seen and heard, but they also want to know that you feel, you know, and I think not everyone slows down enough to pick up on that.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

That's a wonderful point because what you're saying, I think, is they want to know that they can impact you as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

And so intent versus outcome.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah.

Learning To Validate Feelings

SPEAKER_02 20:38

And so that was a that's that's been a painful lesson in my teens and early 20s. So I I'm not a robot anymore for the record, for those of you I can tell. I I I I want to slightly go out of sequence because your story didn't start in aviation, right? You know, it started in a closed old order min and night community, you know, which makes your trajectory even more striking. You didn't learn just learn to fly aircraft, you learned to question entire systems. And that's something that I'm curious about. How did you transition from a religious order to going into the Air Force? How did how did all of those things transpire? Like what was is was there like a domino effect of things that led you that you can clearly go back and say, okay, this was a starting point in this, that which led into this, which then resulted into this?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah. So that I did that in my memoir, going back to what I wanted to do was to chart that path, that navigation out of an old order Mennonite community, which was a very closed, very a very narrow path, particularly for women. So for your listeners who might not know, old order Mennonite is is a Lot like Amish, if they're familiar with that. The Amish drove horse and buggies and had electricity. We had electricity and we drove black cars, but the thinking and the sort of the culture was much the same. We couldn't go to the movies, we couldn't have a television, we couldn't wear makeup, couldn't wear jewelry. And back then, women weren't in the military for the most part, but men, if they were drafted, would declare as conscientious objectors. So we're pacifists. So totally different world. And for me, I would have, I would not be sitting where I am here today if I hadn't had a traumatic event happen when I was a child. My father got excommunicated and he was shunned. And he took his story to the newspapers, which made national headlines for the better part of a decade. It was on the front page of the New York Times, the Washington Post, People magazine. He was Canadian television and news. So it was a searing experience. Our family was kind of thrust into the into the media. It was just, it was, it was just, you know, you're in this very small world, and then suddenly everybody is thinks they know your life. And my father became violent as well. And so for me, very early on, there was this I would have grown up to have a life just like my mother's. I would have worn the bonnet and the garb and all that. But seeing the disparity between, seeing the disparity between what that culture promised and my father's behavior, and without going into it in a great deal of detail, was domestic violence and and the taking money away and taking food away and car and things like that. And so for me, by the time I was in sixth grade, I was like, this happened when I was in second grade. By the time I was in sixth grade, I made the decision that I was going to make my own money. I had no idea how I was going to do it. I just knew I was going to. And then from there, each year, but I then there from each year, you know, one thing happened, another thing happened, and that's a longer story. But that was kind of the turning point, that decision. And then there were some synchronicities and some unusual things that happened, and the path opened up, and it was to the military, it was to the Air Force Academy. So does that answer your question?

Leaving Old Order Mennonite Life

SPEAKER_02 24:35

It it does. It does. I guess it does because I wanted to lead into agency. And I felt that would have been a proper segue into agency, because you often say that clarity restores agency. And that's something that I wanted you to walk us through.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Clarity is the first step. So agency can happen. Agency happens when you walk under your own power, you make your own choices, and you are it's self-leadership, basically. And clarity is the first of what I think of as three main elements of agency. You can't really have agency if you don't have clarity. And people can you gain more agency by developing clarity. It's clarity is a skill, it's a process, it's something, it's it's definitely something you can develop. And but clarity can also be taken away from you. It can be clarity is taken away from you if someone lies to you. You don't have enough information to make a full choice. If if they give you, if they're not transparent, if they manipulate, if they your agency can be taken away physically by someone drugging you or holding you captive. And it can be taken away from you by indoctrination, which is what I grew up in, right? We didn't, as a woman and as a girl growing up in that, you had one choice, which was to grow up and be a wife and a mother and the silent, submissive, obedient. That was your identity. You you so you didn't really have a choice, but you but it was framed as a choice. So your agency is taken away. So clarity is probably one of the most important things, and then everything else follows from that. And so I spent a lot of years, that the the what I describe is a lot of years working things out, seeing the discrepancies, seeing where things didn't add up, and in that getting getting clarity. And that that was central.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

So you said something powerful. The environment always wins, right? So how you know should people think about the environments in their own lives? Because there's a for you personally, you had the environment of it of navigating in aviation, but also navigating your real life, like, you know, whether it is navigating your upbringing or navigating the culture of the Air Force, you know, at that time, you're navigating multiple environments. So how how does the environment always win?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So the environment always wins so long as it's invisible to you. So many of us, if we grow up in an environment, we're not aware of it. It's like uh it's like a fish swimming in the ocean. It just is what it is, and we don't pay much attention to it, and we don't think we have a choice. Like it's been that way for centuries, or this is what we do in our family, or this is what God says to do, or whatever the whatever the environment says, we don't question it. So the second half of that, the second half of that statement, the environment always wins, is the environment always wins until you become conscious of the environment. And then you gain agency. So in aviation, the the way that works is you become conscious of the fact, you you become conscious of the fact that a system could break, right? And you prepare for that. You notice the weather, you fly around the weather, or you change your flight path based upon the winds or turbulence or that sort of thing. You you pay attention to the the state of your fellow crew members. How's this person doing today? You know, maybe they maybe they're having such a hard time in life that they don't necessarily recognize that they're off, they're not up to their usual standards, and you're like, hey, is everything going all right? So, you know, you you you check on your crew members, right? And they check on you. And when you identify it, then you can then you can do something different. Then you have choices. So the environment always wins until you become aware of the environment.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

So how does the the clarity help someone stop forcing and start navigating? Am I am I saying that correctly?

Clarity Restores Agency

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah, that's a that's a really thoughtful question. How does clarity stop someone from forcing? And so that's a really deep kind of clarity around that's a really deep kind of clarity around how things operate, and I think it has to do with I think it has to do with understanding the environment, but also understanding yourself. So if you're trying to make something happen that is I'll I'll give an easy example. I couldn't sing on tune if my life depended upon it. My husband will tell you that. So if I were trying to force something, clarity is, yeah, sweetheart, you you you weren't born a singer, right? If I were trying to force something, I would either think that, hey, if I just practiced enough or or if I wanted this bad enough, or if I do enough mantras, or if I wish it hard enough, it might happen, right? But if I am in touch with the reality of myself, or it could be the reality of an environment. Like the environment that I'm speaking into can't hear the information that I have at this time. It might happen later. So that's what I would say about clarity. It it has to do with you know, looking at the whole context and and not forcing, and not forcing is different than not taking initiative, not doing what you can do.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

And and so then does that require a person to have the full map? Do you have to have the full map in order to be to have clarity?

The Environment Wins Until Seen

SPEAKER_00 31:07

You will never have the full map. You will never have the full map. And that's part of the clarity is that I shouldn't say you'll never have the full map, but you will have what you need in the moment. I I had a mentor that said guidance always comes in advance of need, but sometimes it comes right before. Sometimes it comes 20 years before. I've had guidance that I was like, I don't know what this is for, but it's pretty clear the the level of vibration or integrity of it. I was like, write this down. And then I I have one piece that I literally wrote it down and it took me 20 years. So I was like, oh, that's what that was for. So you will never get the map. You you get the map, you'll never you won't get the map until like the the until you need it. So you you may have something that changes your life and it breaks down your life and it's a painful experience. When you make a decision to leave, to say no more of that, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna go in a different direction. You will get some sort of clarity in a general sense of what do you want? So back to the example when I was in sixth grade and I said, I will make my own money. I had no idea how to do it. And luckily in sixth grade, you don't think you should know how to do that, right? So I just kept going along and I was like, well, that's what I know what I what I want. And I'm gonna keep looking for things on the path that would lead me toward a way in which I could be financially independent as a woman, right? And this was this was in the 70s, so it wasn't as common as it is today. And then that leads to one thing. I call it a trail of breadcrumbs. Clarity in terms of getting the map comes in a trail of breadcrumbs. You you follow that breadcrumb. You follow whatever guidance seems to be on your path, seems to be leading in that direction. And then you follow another one and you learn from it, and you follow another one, you follow another one. And eventually what happens is that you you'll look back and you'll see how it all lined up, but you weren't given that to begin with.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

You know, something better than anybody is. Something I found interesting in terms of from a pattern recognition standpoint, and and I'm gonna pair it with emotions. And because it's emotions, I could be wrong and I'm okay with that. What was your your I guess your true north or your compass in this? Because it it it almost feels like there is like things are happening in a way it it's almost as if you're you're being you know pointed in the right direction. For example, you knew that you needed financial independence, right? Like that's that's something that's guiding you because you you you're able to reference, oh, this is what my mother had to to endure. And and so you you have a base point, and that is high emotional intelligence. And so your environments taught you things, and you were able to use that, your environment, in a way, again, this is these are my my emotions, um, that you were able to use your emotions and and the environment in conjunction with each other as a guidance. And so the fact that you went into aviation, in which there is still there is this compass, you know, emotional compass compass, or and quite literally a real compass as well, that is, that is there. It's almost as if you were destined to be where you are because you were already reading how to navigate all along.

Stop Forcing And Start Navigating

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yes. So I discovered much, much later in life a book called The Souls Code by the famous psychologist James Hillman. And it he talks about the acorn theory. And he says that the acorn underneath its cap carries all of the instructions for what it will one day become, the mighty oak. And he shows uh figures throughout history that the way in which they got guidance or the way in which their path, they already had all the instructions inside them. And it was, I was like, that makes so much sense. Like everything came together for me in that moment. And it's every person now, and and every person has those instructions inside them for what they will one day become. The pansy doesn't try to be a cotton plant, the petunia doesn't try to be an oak tree. They are what they are, and they each have intrinsic value. And importantly, they each have a gift to offer the community. And if we could, I didn't know that then, but I was following something which I call the call of the wild. So I can hear when it's time to move to move, I can, I can feel when it's time to do something different or to stop or to wait. Waiting's not easy for me. So that one that one's difficult. But I can wait, right? But but I can I can feel that and I listen to it. I don't obey blindly, but I do give it a great deal of weight, and then I do all of the other practical the math and the logic and all of that stuff. But so if if how would our lives be different if from an early age we understood, we carried all of the instructions within us, that there was something in us that was asking to be bloomed. There was a life that was asking to be lived, doesn't have anything to do with anybody else. It doesn't have anything to do with being famous or grand or whatever. It's it is something in new that's asking to be bloomed, that's asking to be lived, that's asking to bloom, and that that has a gift. That has a gift, not just for you, but for your community around you. And you don't have to force it. The petunia isn't trying to be liked. It's not trying to get followers. It's just beautiful, right? And it's beautiful in a way that's different than the rose. And so, yes, I think that that lies within each one of us. I think each of us is called to something. And then if we can pay attention to those signs and those signposts on the way and the nudges and the hints. And one thing I wanted to back up and say about clarity is that we often think about clarity. I I think that the the default with clarity is to think about it in a positive sense, right? But we can get an enormous amount of clarity and by seeing what we don't want by negative contrast. And negative role models are really valuable as well. And we can learn from them. And sometimes we can learn as much or more than we can from positive role models. I don't want to be like that, right? Oh, there's that behavior pattern. Oh, shoot, I do that. That's how that looks, right? That's how that looks to other people, that's how that feels. And you're like, okay, I'm gonna work on that pattern. So clarity comes both forms by seeing what we want and also by seeing what we don't want.

You Never Get The Full Map

SPEAKER_02 39:10

There's a, there's a, there's two mantras that I that I live by. And one is that when you understand yourself, you then understand your environment. That that's the first one. And the second one is pain is the gatekeeper of of destiny, which I translate to being you have to just get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

unknown 39:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

And so long as you can tolerate being uncomfortable and you you build that into your operating framework, that it's just the the saying that I tell my team, it's just another Tuesday. And they know what that means. Yeah. Even if it's not Tuesday, it's just another Tuesday. Meaning that because we're alive and we're we're functioning and we have the ability to still make decisions, the worst thing we can do is not make a decision because it's just another Tuesday. We have to make decisions. Right. So that brings me to my final question to you, which is from plain to plain. To me, the story was there all along. It was, it was, it was kind of seeing, watching a movie come together, and then the title from plain to plain, it's like a full circle. And that that is my personal interpretation, but it it seemed like a full circle to me.

The Acorn Theory And Destiny

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Yeah, it is a full circle. It is, and I couldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here, you know. I say in in the back of my memoir that if my father hadn't been as beastly as he was, if the pressure hadn't been as great as it was, I would have been in that life. I just know myself. I would have, I would have been a true believer. I wanted to follow the path of my ancestors, and I wanted to be a good person as that society defined it. That's where I would have been, you know? And so I tell the story in the book how one day I was sitting down by the side of this mill race, which was a little kind of sluggish water, what a little waterway. And I would go down there and I would sit on the side of the bank, and it was beautiful. There were frogs and there were buttercups and and everything. And this one day I was sitting down there inside and I was looking up at the sky, and I sort of got lost in a trance, looking at the blue sky and the clouds, and wasn't really thinking about anything. I just my my mind was clear. It was kind of a blank slate. And I always kind of I trust my guidance whenever it's it's a blank slate and something comes in. And I'm sitting there just looking at the clouds and and just in wonder. And uh I hear a voice that says, You will have a bigger life. And I literally look behind me into the woods, into the trees. I'm like, who's there? Like I was really far from my house and I was a little kid. And so I was kind of afraid. I was like, where did that voice come from? Right. And then I got really indignant. I was like, I don't want a bigger life. Like, this is a perfect life, right? And but so yes, I I think that that destiny lies in us. And for for me, part of that destiny is is showing people how they can decondition from their environments and so that they can make choices of that are their own, that belong to them, that they didn't inherit, that they weren't indoctrinated into without their full awareness. And then you choose. You choose what's best for you, what works for you.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

You know, I think something that people can take away from your story is that clarity isn't just necessary in the cockpit because you know there's a consequence if you're if clarity is not on your side. But clarity is necessary in life because everything that we do affect our us, but it also affects those around us. And I think that we oftentimes don't pay attention to the tiny details because those details matter. You know, whether it's your three-year-old saying that, I just want to come give you a hug or a kiss. Well, it's important, you know, those small details matter. There's a reason why, and we don't know the reason why. And so you have to be able to just slow down. And as the the kids say, there's this term called locked in now that I'm still trying to decipher. But I think it means to be in tune and be connected. And so I I think with your work, a lot of people will learn how to get locked in. And I I I have a great appreciation for. Everything that is to come, and I look forward to di dissecting from plane to plane. I think that's going to be an intellectual treat for myself.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

I would love that. So clarity is a is is a trailblazer for other people too. They're like, oh, I can do that. Yeah.

Negative Contrast Creates Clarity

SPEAKER_02 44:16

So yeah. And it, you know, my fine this will be my final thought. Something that I've learned, and and I learned this through wrestling. I became the captain of the wrestling team. I did not want to be the captain of the wrestling team. I never wanted to be captain of anything that I that I was that I that I did because it just meant more work. That's how I looked at it, right? So whether it was soccer, track, weightlifting, wrestling, I never wanted it. I never wanted it because I always felt like, oh, these guys always have to do more work. Can I just perform, be the best, and just go home? That's what I wanted. Then my my wrestling coach made me go running, and I and I didn't understand why I was being I was running. I I finished first, and that was the thing. If you finish first, you got to go home early, right? So I finished first. That's like he made me go again. And so I did, and I said, All right, I'm done. And then he made me go again. And then he made me go again. And I know I knew better than to say anything or complain because there'd be more. So I I hid my emotions and how angry I was because it was at the point at which it would show. And he he then was like, hey, you know what? We're gonna wrestle. We're gonna go wrestle, and we're gonna go wrestle the entire team. And so I wrestled everyone in the wrestling room. Then I had to go wrestle him, which I absolutely got demolished. Then he made me wrestle everyone again.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

He had a point. Some kind of point he was trying to make clearly.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

Yes. And he said to me that you don't get to choose like who you impact. That was that was the point. It was that when I say that I don't want to do some things, everyone else, whether they're the freshmen or the sophomore, well, now I I created a culture where they'll get to where I am at and they're gonna say, well, I don't want to do that either.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Because that is that was the mistake. That was the culture that the seed that I was planting. And because others were listening to what I was saying, my decisions weren't just my own. I was affecting everyone else. And so there's other parts of your work that it it brought up those emotions and those core memories. Where like we your quote was, I believe, and and and correct me if I'm misquoting, that masculinity isn't the problem. It's it's uh maturity. That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

And so that was something that it brought that back because that is a hyper-masculine sport, and the maturity of saying my decisions affect other people, it now takes me into leadership. That my I have a duty as a leader to make sure that I get things right, and that the culture that I per I perpetuate is that that is sustainable and healthy, and that I'm not creating something that is toxic. That is that is very much the case. I am still masculine, but at the same time, I have emotional intelligence and understanding because of my experiences that my wrestling coach painfully taught me. But I learned that day.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

I learned that you never forgot that.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

That I'm gonna remember that. That's awesome. You don't get to decide who you impact.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yes. And so your work to me is you do your thing. You're you were living your life, Miss Patty. You were living your life. And somewhere along the line, your life now gets to impact other people. And I think that is that is such a beautiful story in itself. So I just wanted to truly just thank you for that. And to uh you bring you brought up those core memories that I will now like it, it's like, oh, I feel this level of revitalization, you know, and I feel reinjuvenated because of it.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Well, I love that. And thank you for sharing that. I'm gonna write that down.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

It's powerful. It's powerful. Yes, and yeah, I never choose who I get to. And the other the other part of that was you also don't get to choose if you're someone else's hero or villain.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

That's true, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:02

That this is my wrestling coach that that that said these things to me. And and when when you're a kid that didn't wrestle before, and you're seeing other people wrestle and compete, you don't think of yourself because you're not on TV necessarily, right? That, oh, like that middle schooler is looking up to me, and to them, I may be uh their superhero. Not that that is something that I was cognitively thinking about, but now I I get it now, especially because I'm a parent. And whenever I I I I work out at home, which I don't like to, if I'm lifting weights, my my son and my daughter, they pull chairs and they clap with them. They say, You're so strong, you can pick up the house. And that's when it's clicked. That I remember as a kid wanting to be a superhero, and in their eyes, I am the superhero, right? So I I do get to be the superhero because the being a superhero is an idea. And Superman, Wonder Woman, they can pick up buildings, they can throw trains, and our impact on the generation behind us is that we are the superheroes and we do make it an impact. Yeah, or we are the villains. And so I I I'm very grateful for your work. Thank you.

Final Takeaways And Share Request

SPEAKER_01 50:30

If someone listening feels between worlds that the old story doesn't fit, the new one isn't clear. What is the first step toward clarity that doesn't require having the full map? Because in aviation, certainty rarely exists. You move forward with the clearest available understanding. What makes this conversation powerful isn't just aviation, it's the discipline behind it. Because clarity in the cockpit isn't optional. It's the difference between drifting and navigating, between reacting and deciding, between confusion and agency. And what Patty shows is that the same principles apply to life. You don't need certainty, you need clarity. The ability to see reality as it is, separate signal from noise, and move forward with grounded decisions. After thirty years in high-stakes environments, that's the lesson she brings back. Clarity is not a feeling, it's a skill. And for anyone listening who feels between worlds, without questioning old assumptions or navigating uncertainty, that skill may be the one that changes everything. This is the magnificent ones.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

If this podcast challenged you, good. Clarity often does. The point here isn't consensus or reassurance, it's to leave you more precise than when you arrived. Keep what sharpens your thinking, discard the rest. But don't confuse familiarity with truth. If this conversation mattered, follow the podcast and share it selectively with people who value depth and not noise. Until next time, stay disciplined with your thinking, selective with your attention, and honest about what you're really optimizing for.